The UFC and Kung Fu

[Adam Linkous]

I realize that there is so much more to the Shaolin Lohan system of Kung Fu than just actual combat. I have a great respect for the potential of this system to bring out the very best of everyone it comes into contact with.

Even though I find myself curious about different forms of martial arts, I still have the somewhat biased opinion that kung fu is the best system no matter what. Thankfully, I have learned over time that it's not what is best overall that's important, but it's what is best for YOU personally. Although I believe in this wholeheartedly, I'm still trying to understand it.

So maybe this question will help bring me one step closer to an understanding: What are your thoughts on the Ultimate Fighting Challenge (UFC) and other similar events (Tough Man, etc)?

Do you believe that this type of entertainment is in any way a good representation of what happens when two different styles of martial arts collide?

I enjoy watching it because it seems to be more "realistic" in what may happen in a real life situation. At least more realistic than what you might see in a movie. I try not to see it as "Kung Fu vs Karate" or "Judo vs Kempo". I try to see it as two people expressing themselves in a chosen art form and the victor isn't the style or form, but the actual person.

Do you believe that it could be educational or just detrimental in general to watch this kind of program?

Do you think that it is it even possible to use this type of program as a basis for an argument in the efficiency and quality of a martial art?

Thank you,

-Adam Linkous

[SiGung Vincent A. Cabais]

You know... I'm almost compelled to see what everyone else has to say about this topic.  It would be interesting to see how "Un-popular" my beliefs are.

Therefore, why don't the rest of you put your two cents in and I'll answer Adam when I'm satisfied with the results.

[Jesse Phillips]

Oh where to start.

Nothing you see on UFC has anything to do with art.  To be good at the art of whoop a$$ all you need to do is condition parts of your body.  Start with your shins, fists, and elbows.  Train so that you throw these weapons effectively.  Now move on to the next aspect, grappling.  If you aren't a trained grappler you need to be good at stopping the shoot so you get to play your game standing up.  If you are a grappler training in submission wrestling should do.  Be able to put the rear naked choke on, arm bars, leg bars, the gaurd, ankle lock, toe locks, all sorts of locks etc. 

Obviously the pple that compete in UFC train hard you see it in the applications used when the fight falls to the ground.  On the ground the fight takes on sort of a battle of wills and skill, but when a UFC fight is standing you see a lack of ability and application.  When standing it is just a game of feints until you can get your opponent to fall back to defense solely then just pumble away.  The aspect of the stand up fight is just natural ability that has been worked up to UFC standards.

If i was to see a UFC fight and later feel like i saw the expression of an art the practioner would need to use setups from standing to the ground not just keeping an eye open on the leg to shoot. 

I do think it is educational to watch UFC fights you get to see application of several different locks.  You can always learn something from watching, not much though.

Efficiency of an art....BJJ is efficient and so is wrestling, but so is the art of cracking someone's skull with your finely tuned elbow.  It really depends on what you call an art.  What you see on UFC isn't the art of a style, just the basics of someone's fighting system, normally all the basics are the same, or a well trained punching kicking machine.

[Sihing Bart Cardetti]

Dit to Hessa.

--Sihing Bart

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In other news, look at the funny guy <a href="http://www.funpic.hu/swf/numanuma.html">singing< /a> a song.

[Matthew D. Shouse]

I agree that UFC is not about art.  My oppinion is that what you see with UFC is street fighting rather than martial art (but dont get me wrong--these people have trained their skills to remarkable degrees).  It is my understanding that the reason for this lack of "advanced technique" is because most true masters feel this kind of event is beneath them.  It is not surprizing that UFC fights almost always go to the grappler, because street fighters worry about overpowering an opponent and strikers of this skill level do not know how to deal with a grappler twice their size (whereas a master level artist only needs one hit to maim or kill).

It is my personal oppinion that UFC is great for showing you what to expect in a street fight--they fight like everyone does instinctively without training, but with the uttmost dedication to become the baddest thugs around.  However, there is a lot more to fighting then just raw strength and reflexes:  it takes an understanding of your environment and your ability to change it at will.  Evidence towards my point being that it would only take a single hit from 70+ year old Master Pan to kill any one of those fighters.  Im currious what your take on not just UFC but "blood sport" (ie that nasty stuff they do in SE Asia) in general, Sifu.

[Jesse Phillips]

A quick little point that i would like to make.  Some masters practice an "art" the UFC people practice to fight.  Calling a some person master doesn't mean much when it comes to fighting...think of the mcdojo's and you'll know what type of master i'm talking about.  They train unrealistically or in some cases not at all.  Then wittle down what training they do and see how much is done to really improve their fighting ability.

And in Pan's case, do you really think pan can kill or maim someone in a single blow...I'm sure he has devestating power, I wouldn't give him my head to test his ability on.  He would probably crack my thin skull with easy, but when a grappler gets you on your back you don't have much room to develop power to strike.  If you aren't strong or skilled on the ground you most likely have lost already.

I watched liddel(kicking punching machine, but more punching) drop ortiz (good at takedown and winning with punches from the mount) because he was good at sprawling away during a takedown.  If the fight hit the floor he most likely wouldn't have won.

Notice Sifu i said masters not Sifus

I think i'll keep rambling

Pan vs. a grappler-Pan can win a number of ways.  If Pan can keep working Pan will most likely win, but should pan find himself on the ground the only person who will really be working will be grappler.  Who ever is working constructively is most likely winning.  So where is the contest, most likely between the grapplers takedown ability and Pan stopping power combined with his ability to avoid the ground.

The UFC isn't a place to gauge fighting ability though.  Fights begin and end mostly for reasons outside of contest.  I win today I lose tomorrow what changed.  UFC using rounds makes setting up unrealistic strategies for a real fight important.  You get a show if a fight lasts longer than a minute in the real world.  Most often someone's determination to inflict pain is gone when they settle down or get hurt.

Well my quick little point grew and grew and as a final note to all "In the land of the cool the sun never sets" That is why people wear sunglasses in doors.

[SiGung Vincent A. Cabais]

Okay… I think I’ve seen enough outside opinions here.  Not that it mattered much, but I was curious if I was close to everyone else’s opinions.

 

So maybe this question will help bring me one step closer to an understanding: What are your thoughts on the Ultimate Fighting Challenge (UFC) and other similar events (Tough Man, etc)?

 

My thoughts are fairly simple.  I believe that those events are a complete waste of time!  It is also a shame that so many people out there believe that “styles” are being represented.  It hurts the rest of us who would never enter such an event.

 

Do you believe that this type of entertainment is in any way a good representation of what happens when two different styles of martial arts collide?

 

Not at all!

 

I enjoy watching it because it seems to be more "realistic" in what may happen in a real life situation. At least more realistic than what you might see in a movie. I try not to see it as "Kung Fu vs Karate" or "Judo vs Kempo". I try to see it as two people expressing themselves in a chosen art form and the victor isn't the style or form, but the actual person.

 

You have a very accurate perception of this.  Having worked “Security” for twenty years; I have seen this very thing.  It is realistic.  What I mean to say is, it is just like a ‘street fight’ between two un-enlightened and un-skilled people trying to make their point.  Fighting is nothing more than a “Battle of Wills”.  That’s all it is.  And that is all that the ‘UFC’ and most “tough man” competitions are about.

 

Do you believe that it could be educational or just detrimental in general to watch this kind of program?

 

I believe it is educational.  However, it is educational only if you have the proper perspective.  If you want to learn how silly people are, especially Men, then go ahead and watch it.  You may be right that the ‘victor’ is the person and not the ‘Art’.  However, I believe that there is no winner in this type of thing.  In my opinion, it is nothing more than legalized “dog fighting” between puppies.

 

Do you think that it is it even possible to use this type of program as a basis for an argument in the efficiency and quality of a martial art?

 

Absolutely not!  The challenge with that is… any ‘True Master’ of a Martial Art has nothing to prove.  We train all of our lives for that one moment when our skills will save our own lives or even someone else’s life.  We pray “that day” never comes.  I have never seen a true ‘Exponent’ or ‘Master’ of a Martial Art participate in these types of events.  Grandmaster Pan Qing Fu has nothing to prove.  Grandmaster Tat Mau Wong has nothing to prove.  And neither should any other ‘Master’.  “Conquering others requires force, conquering yourself requires enlightenment.” – Lao Tzu.  These are the words that most of us live by.  They are the same words that we try to educate the world with.  Competition is healthy for the Spirit.  However, if your objective is to acquire “Glory”…. you should re-evaluate your heart.

 

Im currious what your take on not just UFC but "blood sport" (ie that nasty stuff they do in SE Asia) in general, Sifu.

 

So you bring-up “Blood Sport”.  I have a totally different view on this one.  The reason… it is not for “Glory”.  It is for “Honor” and the “Spirit of Competition”.  You do not typically enter these events.  You are invited to them.  I support these events.

[Adam Linkous]

Thank you, Sifu.

-Adam

[Dai-Sihing Kevin Sears]

Hessa,

I find a slight error in the last example given. I think that a chinese martial artist that is trained to actually fight (that of course being an important, and sometimes rare detail) has a powerful advantage over the average ring fighter.

Since the example of Pan Qing-fu has already been used I will continue it. Having trained so long in the Chinese arts, he (as well as any other practitioner) has had MUCH training in ChiNa, which includes grappling, takedown, pressure points, groundfighting, etc. In the case of master Pan, he also have quite extensive experience applying it in real life. All the techniques of wrestling, jujitsu, aikido, judo...are also found in Chinese ChiNa, you just have to have the time to learn it all! Add that to all the other techniques, punching, kicking, elbows, etc. and you have an advantage. I would place my money on the grappling ability of someone like master Pan over even a well trained grappling fighter any day!

P.S. do not discount the power of the "Iron Fist" so quickly. I had the pleasure of meeting him breifly and seeing the real power of his fist. It WILL break bone and easily knock a man out. Not to mention the gripping power.... hey, isint that good for grappling...?

[Jesse Phillips]

i can't argue with you on any points

I admit I choose the wrong individual for my analogy.  I picked him to focus solely on a hitting fighter (which as you said he is much more) just because he is known for the iron fist.

Second i don't think i will use his name, or other well distinguished MA's, so lightly in the near future.

edit
One thing; being you met him i was wondering what he was like in person.  I've seen him on the discovery channel before, but that doesn't substitue for real life.  So second hand info is welcomed and shouldn't hurt.

Thanks

[Harvey Meeker]

The UFC is just another sort of sport with guys who specialize in a
particular form of competition.  They have even made it more
entertaining by having rounds and making the competitors break if they
are on the ground and not making any moves.  Remember watching
those old UFCs 1-whatever?  The guys would go to the ground and
end up sitting there for an hour doing almost nothing.  Yeah,
that's how a grappling match works, it's a test of endurance mostly,
but it is boring as hell to watch.  So now they make the guys get
up and break after 30 seconds or so of nothing happening.



I watched a UFC last year and it was much more entertaining
overall.  It's like a crude kickboxing match with takedowns and
holds allowed.



Try watching The Smaching Machine
sometime for a different look at the whole NHB scene.  Granted
Mark Kerr is a bit of a strange guy, but it just illustrates what type
of people do this stuff.  There are a lot of juicers and what not
in there, guys who have something to prove and will do just about
anything to get a leg up on the competition.

[Dai-Sihing Kevin Sears]

Hessa,

    I only met him for a VERY short time. But I remember him having an intense energy and a piercing stare....

[Sihing Nelson Day]

UFC = glorified WWF

my personal opinion...

[Jesse Phillips]

lol sounds like someone I know after they are told to be aware of their environment.

[Luis Rossy]

TUF- The Ultimate Fighter

A title like that would never help one with skill, but merely boost one's ego.

UFC, like many of you have said, is just a form of competition, and generally a waste of time.

Vast pinning, throw-downs, etc.

All for what?... A title.

The competitors claim their training is "horrifying", "hairrising".

What many Americans who regularly watch this program fail to realize is, those fighters aren't fighting just to test skill. They are fighting because they want to be the best.

Trainers, have perverted the true ways of teaching... They've converted them into high-egoed steroid taking, machines.

Fighting, just like music, just like politics, has become corrupted or commercial if you will.

Learning to live the life, of a warrior mentally,physically and everything else that comes with it, is a privaledge. Many fighters fail to realize that in this lifetime.

Do not reach for the gold. But reach for the plate, which carries the gold. With it, comes all of its benefits.

Just... to mention it.

- Luis